JESUS “Son of Man”?
I’m hoping the blogosphere can help solve something that has puzzled me for 40 years now, ever since I first came across the issue in “The Jesus Scroll” by Donovan Joyce.
The book itself makes many ridiculous claims about Christianity, ala Dan Brown and his ilk, and is just a psuedo-science work of fiction. However I did come across a problem with Christianity that I was unaware of.
The problem is this; Jesus never claimed he was the Son of God.
When at his trial he was asked “Are you the Son of God”? Jesus’s reply was “I am the son of man.”…….. WHY?…..Why did he answer this way?
Not happy with this answer, Jesus was asked the same question in another form. “Is God your Father”?
Again, Jesus did not reply directly, instead he said something like (depending upon translations) “My Father lies in Heaven”. If you believe in life after death, as Jesus did, then this is an answer any man could give.
Why was Jesus so reticent to directly claim his divinity? Christianity is based on Jesus the Christ, but why is the foundation stone of the faith so obtuse when questioned?
The Jewish people are still waiting for their Messiah, and the Islamic faith recognise Jesus as a great prophet, but not the son of God.
I know Christians can claim miracles, virgin birth and resurrection as proof of divinity, but I would be more comfortable if I knew that Jesus claimed it for himself.
This is not a frivolous question, I have asked many of my religious friends and they don’t know the answer. I attended the ’Alpha Course’, which is organised by churches in the UK, and even they couldn’t give me an answer.
Can anyone quote anything from Jesus that would clarify this issue for me? Thanks in anticipation.
Marathon Runner, Drinker and Artist, Blogging for Pleasure and Profit.
There has been much theological ink spilt over this topic. There is definitely a theme of not wanting to make direct claims in the Gospels (sometimes referred to as the “messianic secret”). However, the claims are undoubtedly there. In Mark 1 24-25 a demon identifies him as the “Holy One of God” – he tells the demon to be silent. In Mark 8 27-30 Peter says he is the Messiah, but Jesus tells them not to tell anyone. There are many other places where Jesus makes the same claim implicitly, such as when the man is lowered through the roof by his friends to be healed in Mark 2
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7″Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . .” He said to the paralytic, 11″I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all.
In this passage Jesus shows he is the messiah rather than claims it. I think this gives us the key. Jesus is looking for people who respond to him by faith. Who sense that he is the way and are prepared to put their trust in him. He is not interested in people knowing he is the messiah and doing nothing about it. He is interested in the men on the roof who loved their crippled friend enough and who believed in Jesus enough to go to the extraordinary length of lowering him through the ceiling.
I suppose Jesus felt making direct claims would actually make it harder for people to respond by having faith in him – which was what his mission was about.
Hope this helps!
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 7th, 2010 at 10:18 am
It certainly does help Mark, and thanks for replying so quickly – I got this about one hour after uploading the post!
I can perhaps understand Jesus wanting the people of his time to have faith in him, but what about us 2,000 years later? I haven’t got faith, and I look at things in a scientific way.
I asked the Bishop of Coventry about scientific or logical proof for faith, and he said “Believing is Seeing”. I think that’s a great quote, but it doesn’t help anybody who hasn’t got faith in the first place.
This is why I find Jesus’s prevarication over the issue so frustrating.
John
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Mark
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August 7th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
John,
I think the situation today is much the same as it was then. Jesus gives people enough for them to sense that he is the real thing…but not enough for scientific proof. It’s very like getting married – you think that the person you are going out with is the right one but there comes a point where you actually have to say “I do” – there is no proof. You have to have faith in the other person, to trust someone else. As a friend of mine used to say, “faith is spelt R-I-S-K”
If he gave us scientific proof there could be no real relationship, not trust, no love – it would just be a fact.
If you are near Coventry, the Dean, John Irvine (ex-barrister) (John.Irvine@coventrycathedral.org.uk) would be a great person to talk to.
Having said all of this, faith is not some blind leap in the dark. There are lots of reasons to believe. This is a good recent book that you might find interesting http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evidence-God-Arguments-History-Philosophy/dp/0801072603/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1281200715&sr=8-1-fkmr2
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 8th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
The book looked interesting Mark, I have quite a few on the same theme. However it appears that every answer is Christianity. I was disappointed with the Alpha Course for the same reason. I thought it was a general course on philosophy and the meaning of life, but the answer to every question was in the Bible. Quoting “the word of God” is not much use to an atheist.
I am puzzled and curious about Jesus the “Son of Man”, but my ‘problem’ with faith goes further back, I don’t believe in God.
I was agnostic for a long time until I realised you CAN have creation without a creator. Sub atomic particles pop into existence out of nowhere, in the quantum flux. They only exist for less than a second and disappear again. I believe the universe started by one of these particles exploding – the big bang that created our universe.
I believe that Jesus is indeed ‘the way’, but not the only way, to live a good life on Earth.
John
My Dear Monsignor John,
When I was looking for myself outside myself I attended a whack of churches beginning with christianity and thankfully ending with scientology. (don’t ever read Dianetics, its a killer!
)
One day during my search and rescue attempts I was challenged to a duel to the depth by a tomb running by the name of The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power.
After running that beggar out of town I was all Topsy Turvy on the religion thing and actually got PO’d about it. And for a while I was dismayed at believing types.
But now I understand. In the same manner that we need different brands of breakfast cereal – religion, politics and the mafia are three sides of the same cultural coin and we’re flipping it until we win.
My brother, I shore do like the questions you ask and I much appreciate you allowing us to learn, too.
BBBarry
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 9th, 2010 at 10:00 am
Thanks for the warning Barry,
I have got Dianetics but only got through a few pages – it didn’t seem very well written. I lost the incentive to read a book by a science-fiction writer who decided there would be more money, power and sex by forming a religion.
I think ALL religions are true, if they work for the individual who believes in their particular brand. As you said, just stick to the breakfast cereal you like.
John
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I can answer it, partly from personal experience, and partly from scriptures. There is a scripture that says if a person testifies of himself, his testimony is not true. In other words, anybody can say anything about himself and we always want to paint ourselves in a good light. There is another scripture that says “every word is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. In other words, I could say, “I’m a great cook”, but not be able to cook at all. But if other people say, “She’s a great cook”, it’s more likely to be the truth. (Incidentally, I’m not a good cook, I hardly cook at all.) We always want to put the best light upon ourselves and “exaggerate” the fish we caught so to speak. Jesus never did answer that question…He did the signs, the miracles, spoke what he spoke, died and resurrected and appeared to people after his death and resurrection, and left it to others to decide. While Jesus was on the earth, when people were saying “Who is Jesus?”, Jesus said to Peter, “Whom do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “Thou are the Christ, the son of the living God.” Jesus replied to that, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonas, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven.” In other words, Peter had heard from the Heavenly Father and could recognize who Jesus was and is. Now to my personal experience. I did not really think about Jesus much until I met someone who was a Christian. I had gone to church, some, not a lot and not consistently, but that is not the same thing. They gave me a book called the “Four Spiritual Laws” and told me to pray the prayer in there, the prayer of salvation. I didn’t, and they kept talking to me and bugging me about it, and finally I prayed the prayer, just to get them off my back, so to speak. The moment I did, I knew I was in the presence of pure power and I knew I was in trouble because I was not right with God and needed to really repent and avail myself of the redemptive work of Christ. I have since sincerely prayed “the sinner’s prayer”. Jesus is real. You can experience that. But it is “according to your faith, be it unto you”. “Ask, and it will be given you.” This is a long answer, but I grew up in a home that didn’t talk about Jesus, I’ve been on both sides of the road so to speak, and can tell you that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is Lord.
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 10th, 2010 at 6:05 am
Thanks Cheryl, a personal answer is more powerful than a purely academic one, AND more relevant. Christianity obviously works for you and I’m very happy for you.
If everyone believed as you, the whole world could be the kingdom of heaven.
Unfortunately people the world over believe just as passionately in different things, and passion sometimes provokes conflict. However if THEIR believe makes them happy, then I think it’s just as relevant and true as Christianity. I presume this is what Jesus meant with “According to your faith, be it unto you.”
I have never come across the Biblical quote “every word is established in the mouth of two of three witnesses” and I take your point with this. I suppose that’s why the New Testament is based on the four Gospels, together with Jesus’s sermon on the mount.
I am not looking for a faith so “Ask, and it will be given you” does not apply to me. However, thank you again Cheryl for this detailed reply, which has helped me understand more about Jesus.
John
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Hi John,
Don’t have a second to read my Bible and tell you all the passages about Jesus being the Son of God, but something else came to mind.
Just a thought I had….
I would rather believe in God and find out there is no God than to NOT believe and find out there is!
Not gonna get into Christianity with you here…but if you have real questions, check out this site. http://www.saddleback.com I am sure they can answer all your questions and concerns.
Have a wonderful day!!
Lisa~
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 10th, 2010 at 6:17 am
You are in esteemed company Lisa. Your thought about it being better to believe in God, is an established philosophical principal known as Pascal’s Wager. It was a suggestion posed by the French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal that, even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.
Pascal states, however, that some do not have the ability to believe. In this case, he directs them to live as though they had faith, which may lead them to belief.
This philosophy uses the following logic:
1. “God is, or He is not”
2. A game is being played… where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4. You must wager. It is not optional.
5. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
There is an eternity of life and happiness (to gain if correct)
There is here an infinity (length) of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain.
A finite number of chances of loss.
What you stake is finite.
When one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life.
When there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
My own ‘get out clause’ for this, is to live a good life without the need to pretend about faith. If there is an after-life, and if there is a God, I think logically he would be a loving God and would not punish someone who through ignorance followed no religion, or the ‘wrong’ religion. I admit this is rather a convenient belief of mine.
Thanks again Lisa, your comment has helped me with the biggest question of all.
John
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Intriguing thoughts on religion. Just curious, have you examine “Letter to some Christian Nation” by Sam Harris?
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 30th, 2010 at 4:52 am
I haven’t heard of this, I shall Google Sam Harris and have a look. Thanks for the tip.
John
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I am an atheist (ex-christian) and found this mostly compelling.
[Reply]
John McNally
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August 31st, 2010 at 6:05 am
I’m lucky, I was brought up in a secular family and didn’t receive any religous indoctrination when I was a child and most vulnerable. My journey has been from agnostic to atheist, so I couldn’t say I was ex-Christian.
John
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Hi John,
This is such an intriguing question about religion especially about Christianity. I will not give any comment in this matter instead I’ll give you the blog of my pastor…http://pastorjo.com/ I hope you don’t mind.
[Reply]
John McNally
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September 9th, 2010 at 7:14 am
Thanks Augustus, I will have a look at your pastors blog.
I’m not really looking for answers however, because the subject is unanswerable. I’m happy with my world view, it’s just a shame that some people want to impose THEIR views onto others? Why?
John
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